I was ignoring you because I was waiting for the other poster to respond about the 1am vote. Just because you get all pissy and want to talk about something else, doesn't mean I have to indulge you, junior. If you want to behave like a toddler, maybe you need a time-out or a binky.
Anyway, now that we've established that there is nothing wrong with a 1am vote, is there something wrong with senators being able to extract concessions?
I guess we need to ask if this is any different than the way the Senate usually works. I'd say it's not. Senators fight to get things for their states, or to get bills changed in ways they want. If you want some good examples, take a look at a Defense Appropriations bill one of these days.
Ben Nelson got some abortion language changed as well, because he is anti-choice for the most part.....and that was a concession to him, just as the extra Medicaid money was. Bernie Sanders (I - VT) got a tax exemption for certain non-profit insurers...as a concession to him....and I expect that he probably cared about that part because (surprise), there are probably non-profit insurers in Vermont.
And of course, Sen. Joe Lieberdick (I - CT), got the public option killed, and also killed off the Medicare expansion....basically because he is a dick and he's pissed off at liberals who successfully primaried him in '06. And because Joe is....well, all about Joe. But those things were a concession to him.
Are these things wrong? I don't know....it's the way the Congress works, no matter who is in charge....it's about negotiations, compromise, concessions, working together to get a bill that will have enough support to pass.
Is it a messy process? Yeah.
Is it full of corporate fingers in the pie? Yes, way too much...(we could heavily regulate corporations and do much more to keep them out of government....but conservatives are too anti-regulation to allow it)
Are these concessions to Lieberdick and Nelson worth killing the entire bill over? No, not in the long run. The bill has many good things in it, and can also be fine-tuned over time. This is a beginning...a framework. Believe me, liberals wanted single-payer, Medicare-for-all, and a much simpler, cheaper, better system. But we have to work with what exists, not what we might wish for.
Do I wish our system worked better? Yes.
Is the Senate a dysfunction, undemocratic place? Yes, very much so.
Smarter to go after the companies that employ illegal aliens.
You can't really blame people for wanting to do whatever it takes to improve life for their families....if you were so poor that you had to cross into another country and work illegally, you would do it too. Bottom line is all of us will do whatever we feel is necessary to help our families and improve their lives.
But what is the excuse for the companies that employ illegals? They are corporations....they aren't in dire straits...they are just wanting cheap labor so they can make a profit. They know the law, and how to avoid it...certainly better than your average uneducated migrant worker does. The people who run companies that employ illegals are American citizens, and they know the law probably right down to the letter, and deliberately break it, or find ways to stay just barely within the law.
Go after them.
Those poor suckers who have to play the dangerous game of getting to this country, living at a subsistence level, and finding work that is extremely hard and extremely low-paying....well, I wouldn't trade places with them and neither would you. Aside from just the human cost of tracking these people down, imprisoning and deporting them....only to do it again next year, it's just expensive to keep trying to hunt down a bunch of small moving targets. But really, they aren't the enemy, and if you were in their place, you would also do what you needed to do to help your family.
But what is the excuse of the business owner who breaks our laws and employs illegals?
They should be much easier to track down....illegal immigrants can hide and move around.....a business can't really do that (except for the drug business).....a farm must be in one place...a factory must be in one place....a business must be registered, must have an address, must have an office, must have an owner, and must be able to be contacted if it wants to remain a business.
Ok, I think I am following your opinion......but I think you are using the wrong words when you refer to the vote as 'shady, stealthy, sneaky.' There is simply nothing shady, sneaky, or stealthy about a vote time announced in advance, with all members present if they wished, and covered live by C-SPAN. You may not like the 1:00am vote, but you are using the wrong words to criticize it.
Naturally, if you are going to call a vote scheduled immediately after all the delaying actions by the Repubes 'sneaky', (basically attacking Reid for acting fast), then you need to apply the same 'sneaky' description to those responsible for making things slow....i.e., the Republicans who deliberately did things to delay the bill's progress.
Consider this quote from Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.):
"I can assure you the vast majority of the [Republican] conference was on my side saying we've had all the fun we're going to have" debating the bill, Inhofe said.
Republicans' insistence on dragging out the process even when the outcome is not in doubt has forced 92-year-old Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.V.) to be wheeled to the Capitol for late-night and early morning votes.
What you are criticizing is tactics, and you criticize the Democrats for wanting to get the bill done (after MONTHS of working on it) but you don't criticize the Repubes for their pointless delay and obstructionism.
Sure, the vote could have been held the next day, or even the day after.....but for what....to give the Repubes time to find more ways to delay things?
And on a personal level, all those congresscritters, even the Repubes, have families and want to be home for Xmas, not sitting in the capitol listening to yet another Repube drone on about their pointless crap.
Obviously, I based my opinion using logic, facts and reasoning. Three factors that are not used by libtards like yourself, I don't know why I keep expecting that you people will ever understand normal thinking.
Uhhh....sure you do. Hey, have any marriages been "destroyed" by gay people getting married yet? No? I thought gay people getting married would "destroy marriage"? That's what conservatives said. Hey, was Terri Schiavo about to get up and dance, like you conservatives said, or was her brain atrophied, like her doctors and liberals who value logic, facts, and reasoning said? Who was right? Oh yeah, we were. Who was wrong? Oh yeah, you were. Did you ever find those WMDs in Iraq? Did those 'drone aircraft' Iraq possessed ever attack us?
Logic, facts, and reasoning are not something conservatives have any acquaintance with.
The funniest part to me is...the Democrats blame Republicans for the 1:00 am vote. Reid said moments before the vote "Everyone knows we're here at one in the morning because of my friends on the other side of the aisle," . On CBS Sunday, Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu said, "We don't have to vote in the middle of the night, but [Republican Sen. Tom Coburn] is the one making us do it -- not Harry Reid, not the Democrats. It is a Republican obstructionist that is making us vote in the middle of the night." Coburn, no doubt slowed debate on the bill. But the fact is, there was no reason the Reid Amendment vote could not have been held at a more reasonable hour. One a.m. Monday was the earliest moment that Senate rules allowed a vote, but there is no rule keeping the Senate from voting at some time after 1 a.m. If Reid had scheduled the vote for, say, 11 a.m. Monday, that would have been fine. If he scheduled it for 4 p.m. Monday, or 10 a.m. Tuesday, that would have been fine, too.
Well, except Xmas travel plans. Like the Inhofe quote above, Repubes were willing to obstruct.....well, until it seemed their obstruction might interfere with their holiday plans....
The Obama administration has set the new standard for a crooked and corrupt government.
Uhhh....except that there is nothing crooked or corrupt about a late-night vote. Here is an article from a right-wing site about cots being wheeled into the Senate for an all-nighter over Bush's judicial nominees: http://www.confirmthem.com/the_president_the_chief_justice_and_cots_in_the_senate. What's that? Senators working past 5pm? Clearly something sneaky, shady, or (god forbid) stealthy involved!!! The Republicans controlled the Senate and set the schedule....why didn't they just schedule everything during business hours?!? How sneaky of them!!!! What shady characters!!!
You see, this is exactly how easy it is to make a fool of you.
Harry Reid slamed foolish dem senators who did not demand goodies for their Obamacare vote , "Reid says if your senator didn't get a goodie, you don't have a very good senator." No previous administration (in my opinion) could come close to the corruption that exists today.
Hmmm...guess you missed the Bush years. Or the Reagan-Bush years (Iran-contra), or the Nixon years, where a Repube president resigned in disgrace facing imminent impeachment.
Obviously, I based my opinion using logic, facts and reasoning. Three factors that are not used by libtards like yourself, I don't know why I keep expecting that you people will ever understand normal thinking.
The funniest part to me is...the Democrats blame Republicans for the 1:00 am vote. Reid said moments before the vote "Everyone knows we're here at one in the morning because of my friends on the other side of the aisle," . On CBS Sunday, Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu said, "We don't have to vote in the middle of the night, but [Republican Sen. Tom Coburn] is the one making us do it -- not Harry Reid, not the Democrats. It is a Republican obstructionist that is making us vote in the middle of the night." Coburn, no doubt slowed debate on the bill. But the fact is, there was no reason the Reid Amendment vote could not have been held at a more reasonable hour. One a.m. Monday was the earliest moment that Senate rules allowed a vote, but there is no rule keeping the Senate from voting at some time after 1 a.m. If Reid had scheduled the vote for, say, 11 a.m. Monday, that would have been fine. If he scheduled it for 4 p.m. Monday, or 10 a.m. Tuesday, that would have been fine, too.
In my mind, this will be as revolutionary in dethroning traditional science as the accepted world view, as the awareness that the earth was not flat was in dethroning the misconceptions of that period of time.
The problem as I see it is that if we are talking about public schools, then we have to be fair to all belief systems. When I talk to people who want to see 'Prayer put back in the schools!!!' they seem to think that (naturally), if we teach religion in our public schools, then it is their religion that will be the one being taught.
I try to explain that if religion will be taught in schools, then no particular religion can be favored over the others.....and that they will have to be comfortable with the fact that their children will be taught about your religion, but also a lot of other religions, some of which you may not like or even find very distasteful. For example, if you are going to teach Christian traditions (and what denomination?), then you also have to give Satanists, Scientologists, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, and everybody else a seat at the same school table. I know a devout Buddhist. I know that if I mentioned that religion is going to be taught at her daughter's school, she is going to want Buddhism taught as well. And it goes on and on and on. And as an Agnostic myself, I wouldn't mind children being taught to ask those kinds of 'ultimate' questions about what might be out there, as long as they were exposed to the idea that there might be nothing out there as well.
How would you address the issue? It's all very well to propose teaching children to ask about the source of things, of consciousness, and that sort of thing, but if you try to leave out any particular belief system, you will meet opposition from the Christians (at the very least) who aren't interested in their children asking questions unless the answers fit in with their existing belief systems.
Do you teach the comparative belief systems somehow, or do you just teach the asking-of-questions, and try to leave all the religions out of the picture? If you did that, religious groups would raise hell.
I was hoping you'd give a thoughtful response. I am curious about how folks like you (not to stereotype), who want some kind of religiosity taught in the schools, think that the enormous variety of competing faiths can be taught.
Actually I tend to work jobs with unusual hours...I'm not really a 9-5 kind of guy.
Still, you can't explain why a 1am vote was any big deal. The goal was to get the bill voted on by Xmas, and Republicans wanted to delay, delay, delay, so Reid kept the Senate in session.
Schedule was announced, it was on C-span, obviously it got enough media coverage for guys like you and me to hear about it, so there doesn't seem to be any kind of mystery or conspiracy here.
Just a conservative on the losing end of a vote, desperately trying to complain over the voting schedule.
Sounds like more conservative sore-loserdom to me....more conservative WAHHHHHH!!!
Your statement: Funny how logic and reason just conspires against you, isn't it? is ironic, that is exactly how to confuse a liberal.
As far as the CBO, I am not exactly a fan of politicians in general, therefore I trust none of them, especially the CBO. They predicted medicare would cost 12 Billion by 1990, but the actual cost in 1990 was 107 Billion...just a little off huh?
2. Your Medicare premiums will go up $285.60 for the 2-years and you will not get the 3% COLA or $660/yr. Your total 2-yr loss and cost is $1,600 or $3,200 for husband and wife. Plain enough??????
3. Every member of Congress will get an added $10,000 which is putting them very close to $200,000 per year. Sounds like an elite class to me.
Keep in mind these "representatives" keep their "cadillac" health care benefits for life, something that needs to be changed in this voter's mind. Term limits for all elected officials, and tax payer approved raises...how many of us get to vote our own pay raises? How many of us get a pay raise if we have not done an acceptable job?
§ 176. Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
Why am I flying a distress signal…?
Our country, our republic is in extreme danger. For years we have been on a slippery slope of losing or freedoms and liberty’s but in the last year it is like it’s on a fast track. With bail out bills, TARP, stimulus packages an ever growing government. And our representatives in Washington don’t listen they think they know what’s best instead of what we think the ones who pay them… 50% of America said NO!!! To all this, Dc said who cares what the people think the government knows best….
Now we have another nail in the coffin of or freedoms. On December 24th the government passed the unconstitutional healthcare reform 62% of America said NO! To this and again our reps in Dc said who cares what you think. Now you have to by law have a health care plan or pay a fine of $750-2500 for not having it, that also includes all of those of you who are unemployed, you just get a tax credit of $3000 that’s a low ball for one person $250 a month by the way you have to pay this back. Oh there is that over 400 billion cut from Medicare and Medicaid …. Looks like grandma can forget about that hip replacement. By the way you start paying NOW for this but it doesn’t kick in till 2014. What are they going to do next? Is America in distress and are Americans in extreme danger of life and property…I SAY YES!
This is why I’m flying my flag upside down and will continue to.
I would like you to do this to, if you got a flag go hang it upside down were they will see it and when they ask tell them why, get a flag bumper sticker put it upside down on your vehicle tell your family and friends to do the same…MAKE THIS GO VIRAL… tell them in Dc “This is it you crossed the line”.
Thanks man, although I have to say there are plenty of atheists who celebrate xmas. After all, it's been turned into a holiday of santa, presents, trees, lights, shiny things, and mindless consumerism, and doesn't really have much left of its original christian meaning.
See, this is interesting because an earlier version of the Senate bill was sent to the CBO by Republicans, and it came back with a $1.6 trillion dollar price tag.
Well, the Republicans seemed to think that the CBO report was just about as important as the Word of God, and they went on all the television shows and right-wing radio talking about what the CBO report said......when it helped their position.\
So, as long as the Republicans apparently feel that the CBO report is to be trusted, now that the CBO has analyzed the latest version of the Senate bill, and declared that it would reduce the deficit....well, who am I to argue with the chosen source of the Republican party? After all, they seem to think the CBO is a quite valid source.
So since the Republicans value the opinion of the CBO, I guess it must be valid, and the current report that says the Senate bill reduces the deficit must be accurate......after all, Republicans trust the CBO.
According to your theory that government should be done by polling...
Health care reform polled very well earlier this year and last year (60% for single-payer, 76% for some sort of public option, I believe).
Of course, months of right-wing lies and distortions have had their effect, so now it polls rather poorly.
However, according to your Theory of Iraq, which polled high at first (based on lies), and then dropped to below 50%, that is no problem.
Very well....I will take you at your word, and because health care reform polled very well at first, and not very well now (that republicans have spent months lying about it), that means we must continue....just as you say is appropriate in Iraq.
Each time the Republicans delayed, the vote was pushed back. As each Republican asked for ten minutes to speak, the vote was pushed back ten minutes further, until all the Republicans got their chance to speak. Then the vote was held.
How? The vote had been scheduled for earlier, but Republicans demanded time to [delay]...er....debate, force amendments to be read out loud, and do other things to just stall. And the final vote wound up happening around 1am.
It was on C-SPAN, you know. All but one Republican was there. The time was announced.
Just google fema camps colorado.......ask yourself why we suddenly have 14 just here in CO......Are we expecting a hurricane here???..or in kansas???
Hundreds have suddenly popped up all over the country......where were they during katrina??......they didn't exist.....
Hitler and his gestapo called them re education camps..TRANSPARENTLY of course.....a few shorts years later the people learned the truth..way,way too late.......is it already too late here???....
So what is next? Cap and tax, then what another stimulus package, and oh. yeah.....we owe the world for our success, err I mean our reckless pollution. And let us not forget dis-arming America, that has got to be getting high on the Obama to do list.
All I have to say is GOOD LUCK.... it is un-Constitutional for the federal government to force Americans to purchase a product. Funding this bill should prove to be entertaining as well, as there is a growing number of Americans ready to revolt in the form of withholding tax payments to the federal government. That's right, real patriots standing up for what we believe in. WTF is the government going to do, send all of us that refuse to pay to jail? Good luck with that, the jails are nearly broke and over-crowded as it is. Sending non-violent "offenders" to jail for not supporting theft and extortion seems like something that would happen in a dictatorship or under a communistic rule.
Muslims in our ARMY?????..........Is this not who we are FIGHTING????.....Which liberal allowed this??.....How many other EXTREMIST ISLAMIC MUSLIMS are within our own military......???
Other than our own President(pretender),of course...........
Health care.....Quite the distraction,don't you think??.. Mandatory insurance,with collections and fines handled by the thieving IRS???..Why are the "transparent" lawmakers exempt from this??
Swine flu??....What a scam.... 30,000 americans die of influenza in this country every year,but when a few die of this flu,we have a stage 6 pandemic......Anyone that runs a government "vaccine" into their veins,should think twice beforehand...
The OCCUPYING of Iraq and the Afgani regions.....We are not at war,we are occupying for the Caspean Sea corridor.....There is a huge difference........In war,we are allowed to actually kill the enemy,not stand around waiting to be killed.... The Kenyan is letting our boys and girls die.....
More hatred between our own people than ever before in our short history......
"Homeland" security created by the biggest scam on the American people,9/11,since the murder of JFK......Designed to CONTROL our own law abiding citizens.....
Gun and AMMO control designed again,to CONTROL law abiding AMERICANS......Cetainly not KENYANS.......
A National Security Force again designed to control law abiding AMERICANS.......Stalin's KGB comes to mind......
This is all a smoke screen,and it's by design....It is working,and you are letting it.........
The NEW WORLD ORDER,which is spoken of freely everywhere but here in AMERICA is here........This has been planned and carried out by our nation's leaders since the beginning of our nation....Our founding "fathers" were ALL FREE MASONS..........This is NOT a THEORY.......It is A FACT......Their hidden agenda is taking place before our eyes.....At least those of us whose eyes are actually open..
We need to fight this REGIME that is running our country before it's too late.......
The next EVENT as 9/11 was, is here......We are living it........We just haven't yet been told........
If you are a believer in GOD,God bless you.....You're gonna need it...
If not,I'll meet you in hell.........At least I'll go down fighting.......
Please,take the few minutes and study this list......Ask yourself why,the most powerful in the world have an annual meeting....Ask yourself why their meetings are so very secretive,and protected by military and private security forces.....SInce 1954....
Remember.our world is the way it is,because they want it this way......
2008 BILDERBERG LIST
2008 CURRENT LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
Honorary Chairman
BEL “Davignon, Etienne” “Vice Chairman, Suez-Tractebel”
DEU “Ackermann, Josef” “Chairman of the Management Board and the Group Executive Committee, Deutsche Bank AG”
CAN “Adams, John” Associate Deputy Minister of National Defence and Chief of the Communications Security Establishment Canada
USA “Ajami, Fouad” “Director, Middle East Studies Program, The Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, The Johns Hopkins University”
USA “Alexander, Keith B.” “Director, National Security Agency”
INT “Almunia, Joaquín ” “Commissioner, European Commission”
GRC “Alogoskoufis, George” Minister of Economy and Finance
USA “Altman, Roger C.” “Chairman, Evercore Partners Inc.”
TUR “Babacan, Ali ” Minister of Foreign Affairs
NLD “Balkenende, Jan Peter” Prime Minister
PRT “Balsemão, Francisco Pinto” “Chairman and CEO, IMPRESA, S.G.P.S.; Former Prime Minister”
FRA “Baverez, Nicolas” “Partner, Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP”
ITA “Bernabè, Franco” “CEO, Telecom Italia Spa”
USA “Bernanke, Ben S.” “Chairman, Board of Governors, Federal Reserve System”
SWE “Bildt, Carl” Minister of Foreign Affairs
FIN “Blåfield, Antti ” “Senior Editorial Writer, Helsingin Sanomat”
DNK “Bosse, Stine” “CEO, TrygVesta”
CAN “Brodie, Ian ” “Chief of Staff, Prime Minister’s Office”
AUT “Bronner, Oscar” “Publisher and Editor, Der Standard”
FRA “Castries, Henri de ” “Chairman of the Management Board and CEO, AXA”
ESP “Cebrián, Juan Luis” “CEO, PRISA”
CAN “Clark, Edmund” “President and CEO, TD Bank Financial Group”
GBR “Clarke, Kenneth” Member of Parliament
NOR “Clemet, Kristin” “Managing Director, Civita”
USA “Collins, Timothy C.” “Senior Managing Director and CEO, Ripplewood Holdings, LLC”
FRA “Collomb, Bertrand” “Honorary Chairman, Lafarge”
PRT “Costa, António” Mayor of Lisbon
USA “Crocker, Chester A.” James R. Schlesinger Professor of Strategic Studies
USA “Daschle, Thomas A.” Former US Senator and Senate Majority Leader
CAN “Desmarais, Jr., Paul ” “Chairman and co-CEO, Power Corporation of Canada”
GRC “Diamantopoulou, Anna” Member of Parliament
USA “Donilon, Thomas E.” “Partner, O’Melveny & Myers”
ITA “Draghi, Mario” “Governor, Banca d’Italia”
AUT “Ederer, Brigitte” “CEO, Siemens AG Österreich”
CAN “Edwards, N. Murray ” “Vice Chairman, Candian Natural Resources Limited”
DNK “Eldrup, Anders ” “President, DONG A/S”
ITA “Elkann, John” “Vice Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.”
USA “Farah, Martha J.” “Director, Center for Cognitive Neuroscience; Walter H. Annenberg Professor in the Natural Sciences, University of Pennsylvania”
USA “Feldstein, Martin S.” “President and CEO, National Bureau of Economic Research”
DEU “Fischer, Joschka” Former Minister of Foreign Affairs
USA “Ford, Jr., Harold E.” “Vice Chairman, Merill Lynch & Co., Inc.”
CHE “Forstmoser, Peter” “Professor for Civil, Corporation and Capital Markets Law, University of Zürich”
IRL “Gallagher, Paul ” Attorney General
USA “Geithner, Timothy F. ” “President and CEO, Federal Reserve Bank of New York”
USA “Gigot, Paul ” “Editorial Page Editor, The Wall Street Journal”
IRL “Gleeson, Dermot ” “Chairman, AIB Group”
NLD “Goddijn, Harold” “CEO, TomTom”
TUR “Gögüs, Zeynep ” “Journalist; Founder, EurActiv.com.tr”
USA “Graham, Donald E.” “Chairman and CEO, The Washington Post Company”
NLD “Halberstadt, Victor” “Professor of Economics, Leiden University; Former Honorary Secretary General of Bilderberg Meetings”
USA “Holbrooke, Richard C. ” “Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC”
FIN “Honkapohja, Seppo” “Member of the Board, Bank of Finland”
INT “Hoop Scheffer, Jaap G. de” “Secretary General, NATO”
USA “Hubbard, Allan B.” “Chairman, E & A Industries, Inc.”
BEL “Huyghebaert, Jan” “Chairman of the Board of Directors, KBC Group”
DEU “Ischinger, Wolfgang” Former Ambassador to the UK and US
USA “Jacobs, Kenneth” “Deputy Chairman, Head of Lazard U.S., Lazard Frères & Co. LLC”
USA “Johnson, James A.” “Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC” (Obama’s man tasked with selecting his running mate)
SWE “Johnstone, Tom ” “President and CEO, AB SKF”
USA “Jordan, Jr., Vernon E.” “Senior Managing Director, Lazard Frères & Co. LLC”
FRA “Jouyet, Jean-Pierre ” Minister of European Affairs
GBR “Kerr, John ” “Member, House of Lords; Deputy Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc.”
USA “Kissinger, Henry A.” “Chairman, Kissinger Associates, Inc.”
DEU “Klaeden, Eckart von” “Foreign Policy Spokesman, CDU/CSU”
USA “Kleinfeld, Klaus” “President and COO, Alcoa”
TUR “Koç, Mustafa ” “Chairman, Koç Holding A.S.”
FRA “Kodmani, Bassma” “Director, Arab Reform Initiative”
USA “Kravis, Henry R.” “Founding Partner, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.”
USA “Kravis, Marie-Josée” “Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, Inc.”
INT “Kroes, Neelie ” “Commissioner, European Commission”
POL “Kwasniewski, Aleksander ” Former President
AUT “Leitner, Wolfgang” “CEO, Andritz AG”
ESP “León Gross, Bernardino” “Secretary General, Office of the Prime Minister”
INT “Mandelson, Peter” “Commissioner, European Commission”
FRA “Margerie, Christophe de” “CEO, Total”
CAN “Martin, Roger” “Dean, Joseph L. Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto”
HUN “Martonyi, János” “Professor of International Trade Law; Partner, Baker & McKenzie; Former Minister of Foreign Affairs”
USA “Mathews, Jessica T. ” “President, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace”
INT “McCreevy, Charlie ” “Commissioner, European Commission”
USA “McDonough, William J.” “Vice Chairman and Special Advisor to the Chairman, Merrill Lynch & Co., Inc.”
CAN “McKenna, Frank” “Deputy Chair, TD Bank Financial Group”
GBR “McKillop, Tom ” “Chairman, The Royal Bank of Scotland Group”
FRA “Montbrial, Thierry de” “President, French Institute for International Relations”
ITA “Monti, Mario” “President, Universita Commerciale Luigi Bocconi”
USA “Mundie, Craig J. ” “Chief Research and Strategy Officer, Microsoft Corporation”
NOR “Myklebust, Egil” “Former Chairman of the Board of Directors SAS, Norsk Hydro ASA”
DEU “Nass, Matthias” “Deputy Editor, Die Zeit”
NLD “Netherlands, H.M. the Queen of the”
FRA “Ockrent, Christine” “CEO, French television and radio world service”
FIN “Ollila, Jorma” “Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc”
SWE “Olofsson, Maud ” Minister of Enterprise and Energy; Deputy Prime Minister
NLD “Orange, H.R.H. the Prince of”
GBR “Osborne, George” Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer
TUR “Öztrak, Faik” Member of Parliament
ITA “Padoa-Schioppa, Tommaso ” Former Minister of Finance; President of Notre Europe
GRC “Papahelas, Alexis” “Journalist, Kathimerini”
GRC “Papalexopoulos, Dimitris” “CEO, Titan Cement Co. S.A.”
USA “Paulson, Jr., Henry M.” Secretary of the Treasury
USA “Pearl, Frank H.” “Chairman and CEO, Perseus, LLC”
USA “Perle, Richard N.” “Resident Fellow, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research”
FRA “Pérol, François” Deputy General Secretary in charge of Economic Affairs
DEU “Perthes, Volker” “Director, Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik”
BEL “Philippe, H.R.H. Prince”
CAN “Prichard, J. Robert S.” “President and CEO, Torstar Corporation”
CAN “Reisman, Heather M.” “Chair and CEO, Indigo Books & Music Inc.”
USA “Rice, Condoleezza” Secretary of State
PRT “Rio, Rui ” Mayor of Porto
USA “Rockefeller, David ” “Former Chairman, Chase Manhattan Bank”
ESP “Rodriguez Inciarte, Matias” “Executive Vice Chairman, Grupo Santander”
USA “Rose, Charlie” “Producer, Rose Communications”
DNK “Rose, Flemming” “Editor, Jyllands Posten”
USA “Ross, Dennis B.” “Counselor and Ziegler Distinguished Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy”
USA “Rubin, Barnett R.” “Director of Studies and Senior Fellow, Center for International Cooperation, New York University”
TUR “Sahenk, Ferit ” “Chairman, Dogus Holding A.S.”
USA “Sanford, Mark” Governor of South Carolina
USA “Schmidt, Eric” “Chairman of the Executive Committee and CEO, Google”
AUT “Scholten, Rudolf ” “Member of the Board of Executive Directors, Oesterreichische Kontrollbank AG”
DNK “Schur, Fritz H. ” Fritz Schur Gruppen
CZE “Schwarzenberg, Karel ” Minister of Foreign Affairs
USA “Sebelius, Kathleen” Governor of Kansas
USA “Shultz, George P.” “Thomas W. and Susan B. Ford Distinguished Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University”
ESP “Spain, H.M. the Queen of”
CHE “Spillmann, Markus” “Editor-in-Chief and Head Managing Board, Neue Zürcher Zeitung AG”
USA “Summers, Lawrence H.” “Charles W. Eliot Professor, Harvard University”
GBR “Taylor, J. Martin” “Chairman, Syngenta International AG”
USA “Thiel, Peter A.” “President, Clarium Capital Management, LLC”
NLD “Timmermans, Frans ” Minister of European Affairs
RUS “Trenin, Dmitri V.” “Deputy Director and Senior Associate, Carnegie Moscow Center”
INT “Trichet, Jean-Claude” “President, European Central Bank”
USA “Vakil, Sanam” “Assistant Professor of Middle East Studies, The Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University”
FRA “Valls, Manuel ” Member of Parliament
GRC “Varvitsiotis, Thomas” “Co-Founder and President, V + O Communication”
CHE “Vasella, Daniel L.” “Chairman and CEO, Novartis AG”
FIN “Väyrynen, Raimo” “Director, The Finnish Institute of International Affairs”
FRA “Védrine, Hubert” Hubert Védrine Conseil
NOR “Vollebaek, Knut” “High Commissioner on National Minorities, OSCE”
SWE “Wallenberg, Jacob” “Chairman, Investor AB”
USA “Weber, J. Vin” “CEO, Clark & Weinstock”
USA “Wolfensohn, James D. ” “Chairman, Wolfensohn & Company, LLC”
USA “Wolfowitz, Paul ” “Visiting Scholar, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research”
INT “Zoellick, Robert B. ” “President, The World Bank Group”
Bilderberg Groupies - Who's Who In US Media PDFBy Uri Dowbenko Conspiracy Planet.com 6-6-4
* Mort Zuckerman, chairman US News and World Report
* Arthur Sulzberger, editor New York Times
* Conrad Black, chairman, The Telegraph
* Lesley Stahl, CBS 60 Minutes
* George Will, James Reston, Joseph Kraft, political columnists
* William F. Buckley, National Review (also a Skull and Bones member, as is his son novelist Christopher Buckley)
* Thomas L. Friedman, New York Times columnist
* William Kristol, editor/ publisher Weekly Standard
* Peter Jennings, ABC World Tonight
* Jim Hoagland, Washington Post
* George Stephanopoulos, media pundit
Jack Kennedy, during his term of office as the President of the United States, became a Christian. In his attempt to "repent," he tried to inform the people of this Nation (at least twice) that the Office of the President of the United States was being manipulated by the Illuminati/CFR. At the same time, he put a stop to the "borrowing" of Federal Reserve Notes from the Federal Reserve Bank and began issuing United States Notes (which was interest free) on the credit of the United States. It was the issuing of the United States Notes that caused Jack Kennedy to be "assassinated."
Upon the taking the Oath of Office; Lynden B. Johnson stopped the issuing of the United States Notes and went back to borrowing Federal Reserve Bank Notes (which was loaned to the people of the United States at the going rate of interest of 17%). The US Notes, that was issued under John F. Kennedy, was of the 1963 series which beared a "Red" seal on the face of the "Note."
From The Illuminati and the Counsel on Foreign Relations PDF By Myron Fagan
This semi-secret organization was established in 1971 and the members of this secret society are exclusively Americans and Canadians. Today the CFR(4) holds a tight control over the countries of the Western World, with help from sister-organizations and its mother-organization in Britain, the "Royal Institute of International Affairs" (RIIA), with Queen Elisabeth II at the top. The CFR is in its turn controlled by the Rockefellers and also works for a Global Government. The inner core is the dark Order of Skull & Bones, where George Bush Sr and George W Bush Jr. are members. From: The Secret Order of The Illuminati (PDF)
Hillary Clinton admits that the CFR runs the Government PDF by David Kramer on July 17, 2009
The CFR controls American media Video - Prof. Carroll Quigley mentored Bill Clinton
Then we also have:
Hillary Clinton CFR/Trilateral Commission/Bilderberg Group
Barack Obama CFR (His wife Michelle is on the Chicago Board of Directors CFR
offices)
Chris Dodd CFR
Joseph Biden CFR
Bill Richardson CFR
Welsey Clark CFR
Newt Gingrich CFR
Dick Cheney CFR
Mitt Romney CFR (His top advisor for terrorism is from BLACKWATER and who was
under investigation by the CIA, and as of today found GUILTY.)
Mike Huckabee CFR
John McCain CFR
Rudy Giuliani CFR (His legal firm has ties to the NAU)
Bill Clinton CFR
Condeleeza Rice CFR
Donald Rumsfeld CFR
If there is a true 2 party system in this country,then why are all these free masons,skull and bones members and trilateralists playing on the same team???
Who the hell is Michelle Osama Obama anyways......Did we elect her to something and we didn't know???
It's a smoke screen ladies and gents to the true agenda,it's been coming for generations,we just happen to be living it.......
The Obama voters, or the politicians who walk, arm linked in arm to pass the laws?
After all, Presidents (Executive Branch) don't pass laws, the Pol's do (Legistrative Branch)...you know that.
And EVEN if, by chance, the Executive Branch put pressure on certain Pol's--if it's true, who's to blame? The Executive Branch, or the pussy Legistrative Branch?
What ever happened to free will? I bet you wouldn't succumb--and neither would I if my moral compass was at stake.
It ain't our President that's at fault, it's greedy Pol’s seeking pork and votes at home that are at fault.
Let's say that our President offered "gold and glory” to every state that "votes" for health care reform....
He CANNOT constitutionally deliver UNLESS our elected and so-called venerable Congress makes the promises and vote said promises in.
Don't hate the playa', hate the game.
I do. I hate this damn game.
To be frank with you and all of Craig's listeners/readers, I'm sorry I got a degree in Business Management and Accounting instead of Political Sciences and Law.
Had I been a poly-sci major or a lawyer, I would now have a D.C. job, as a Representative, a Senator, or a Lobbyist and I would now be rich beyond means.
My family would have had it "made in the shade", with "cushy" government jobs through my "connections" while I "back-palmed" my "brethren" as we made ourselves rich with pork. I would hire my nephews and lot's of "pretty" interns.
"Would you like to suck my cigar?" (Said in a bad southern accent, reminiscent of a past President.)
Ahh, what a county.
Too bad for me that I am a taxpayer and not a lawmaker.
Oh well...I guess I'll just vote instead.
Sincerely posted,
Sunrise
P.S.
LOL!
Where is that sign post from?
Dildo?
I'm guessing Kentucky or Southern Ohio. Just a guess....
I like you Shadow.
Stay in Touch and Merry Christmas to you and yours!
The White House Czars are self-proclaimed Socialists and subscribe to the One World Government philosophy, but they are just the tip of the iceberg!
The real Power Brokers calling the shots have voiced their contempt for the Constitution, free enterprise, the U.S. dollar, the rule of law, and the rights of people who enjoy the benefits of free speech. Find out who these people are and why they have so much power!
If you are talking about senators and congresscritters negotiating with each other to pass bills and so forth, then yeah, that is the way it has always worked in this country. I'd guess that a lot of legislation in this country has historically been worked out in back rooms with a lot of cigar smoke. I wasn't expressing my opinion about it....I was just stating a rather obvious truth.
BTW, the "early am vote" happened because Republicans are using every procedural tactic they can to delay, delay, delay, so the vote kept getting pushed back. If you want votes to happen during business hours, call your Republicans and tell them to stop delaying. Realistically, though, what is the difference if the vote happens at 1am or at noon? It's not like you or I are going to miss out on hearing about it. Who cares what time a vote happens? What difference does it make? I'd say none.
Exactly who deemed the Republicans the party of "NO" ? I happen to have read several Republican and conservative ideas for real health reform, none of which cost the tax payers over a Trillion dollars.
I'd say the Republicans deemed themselves the party of "NO". When they just decided to vote NO on everything, that's the name they get. The funny thing about the Republican "plans" is that they were so vague that they didn't contain any budget numbers at all. BTW, according to the CBO report on the Senate bill, it will actually save money.
I guess what you don't understand is that Democrats are not going to pass a "Republican" or "conservative" health care reform. If you wanted that, then you should have gotten on the GOP's ass when they were in charge. Why didn't they pass health care reform when they had Congress and the White House? Too busy changing French fries to Freedom Fries in the congressional cafeteria?
That's really funny.....that you somehow think that now that Democrats are in charge, they should therefore pass Republican stuff that the GOP never bothered to do. Yeah, I'm afraid that's not how it works....
When the majority of tax payers do not approve, yet our "leaders" completely ignore what the people want, what is that? It sure as hell isn't an example of what our founding fathers meant when they wrote... "of the people, for the people, by the people".
Are you referring to the polls from last spring, when a majority did approve? Or only now, after a summer of deceit and lies and 'death panels' and similar nonsense from you wingers?
I'm afraid that government by survey is actually not what the founding fathers meant. That's why they made elections.
It's an interesting idea....government by opinion poll. So tell me....when more than 50% of Americans no longer approved of the war in Iraq, and wanted the troops out, why did Bush not pull them out immediately? After all, according to you, Bush was "ignoring what the people want." Of the people, for the people, by the people, right? Isn't that what you said?
You wingers really have some funny ideas about things. It's like you don't know squat about the way this country works, so you get these half-baked ideas in your head of how things should be....and since you never bother to learn any facts, you just run with them.
So do you understand now that the executive branch (the 'President') does not control how the legislative branch (the 'Congress') works?
That actually WAS the issue we were talking about, so I am not sidestepping anything....I am sticking to the original subject and ignoring the extraneous stuff you toss out because YOU are sidestepping.
Since I had to explain to you the most basic separation of the branches of government, I want to make sure you understand.
In a representative government, the basic premise is that if you have more of your people than the other side, you get to set the agenda and put your policy into place.
It shouldn't be normal for a functioning republic to have a minority that can just block everything by refusing to participate.
You might not like a party-line vote, but it does reflect the idea that the winner of the elections gets to advance their agenda because that's what the people decided at the ballot box.
Exactly who deemed the Republicans the party of "NO" ? I happen to have read several Republican and conservative ideas for real health reform, none of which cost the tax payers over a Trillion dollars.
When the majority of tax payers do not approve, yet our "leaders" completely ignore what the people want, what is that? It sure as hell isn't an example of what our founding fathers meant when they wrote... "of the people, for the people, by the people". If your idea of a normal "functioning republic" is back room deals, early am votes, bribery and outright robbery of tax payers, you do not have functioning brain.
The approval ratings of Pelosi and team are at record lows, Obama's approval rating has also suffered, top that off with very unpopular health care legislation, and cap and tax bill, liberals will be DOA in 2010 and 2012. Hell this may work out for the best...remember what happened with the last Democrat president that screwed up everything, Republicans ruled for 12 straight years. I wonder how long the Republicans will rule after this one term wonder flops...
Apparently you're not aware of how bills are introduced and changed. You seem to be pretty naive.
Did Obama promise to change the way bills are introduced and changed? Maybe you should find that exact quote.....because Congress is a separate branch of the government (it's called the Legislative branch), and the way it works cannot be changed by the president, which is the Executive branch.
The point is, insisting that 'scientific and intellectual fact' is all that should be taught in schools, is promoting a religion. A belief system. Since science and intellectual's are wrong so often, it is no more reliable than faith in a greater power. Denying our children the opportunity to learn how to question this belief system, is not going to prove to be productive in the long term, in my opinion.
I must say, I agree with your points on Congress. I'm probably a little more radical than you though. One term for every office in the land. Including judges. No lobbying allowed at all.
CAMPAIGNS TO BE FUNDED BY A NON PROFIT COMPANY, WITH MAXIMUM $ AMMOUNTS TO BE PAID OUT....... ITS CALLED PUBLIC SERVICE!
TERM LIMITS.............. 2 TERMS / 12 YEARS SENATE!....................4 TERMS / 3yrs.....Total 12 YEARS HOUSE! ANY MEMBER OF CONGRESS TAKING ANY PAYOFF.....IMMEDIATLY TERMINATED FROM POSITION AND PAYS DOUBLE THEIR SALARY BACK PLUS PAYOFF...... TO THE GOVT PLUS POSSIBLE PRISON TIME !
I hate to break it to you, but that is how laws are made...through negotiations. I will vote for your bill, if you vote for mine. If you block mine, then I will kill your bill when it passes through my committee. That is just how it works in a nation of elected representatives. They negotiate with each other to achieve a compromise that is acceptable to enough representatives to get a bill passed.
It's messy, but it's the way the government of this country has worked since it was founded. And no, Obama ran on change, but not 'change everything'. The only way you are going to change that part of it is to abolish Congress.
If one party is just determined to be the party of NO, and oppose everything, then what else can be done?
In a representative government, the basic premise is that if you have more of your people than the other side, you get to set the agenda and put your policy into place.
It shouldn't be normal for a functioning republic to have a minority that can just block everything by refusing to participate.
I guess you were born yesterday. This sort of deal-making (vote for my bill, and I will support you on yours.....I will vote for your bill, as long as it includes help for my state) is how our system works, like it or not. It is not new to this bill.....in fact, it has been how bills are crafted for many decades now. I guess you didn't know that?
- Those that respect the law and love sausage should watch neither being made. -- Mark Twain -
So tell us, are you okay with all this shit?
Parts of it are good, parts of it are not good. In total, it makes me want to declare the Senate unworkable, and abolish the chamber. It's an undemocratic holdover from a time of aristocracy. It does not represent the people fairly, unless you think it's okay that states with tiny populations get the same number of representatives as states with very large populations....so it gives an inordinate amount of power to rural, empty states compared to states where many more of "the people" actually live. And it's basically a little club of millionaires.....dysfunctional.
Corporations control us all. It would have been nice to just establish single-payer and cut out the insurance industry entirely, but conservatives wouldn't allow that.
How does this even get near a healthcare reform bill by the way? I see a bunch of cronies in office that are passing a bill that the majority of americans are against. Go ahead and pass it assholes because you are going to pay for it too. I find it hilarious that you people think you won't be affected by this in a negative way. That's okay because next year during elections people will not forget what you thugs are pulling off over the american public. And you have the nerve to talk about republicans when you clowns are destroying this country. Your time is coming dildos.
Republicans could have addressed health care when they were in charge.....oh, but they didn't want to.
You're welcome. But what I meant by 'what do you teach' was not whether you taught a class yourself, but more like, 'which religion would be taught in schools--there are thousands of belief systems'?
Do you believe in human awareness? Consciousness? These are not measurable. Oh, they can now do brain scans to see what portions of the brain become active when stimulated certain ways, but the awareness, consciousness it self, is not measurable. Experiments cannot be conducted to verify their ‘existence’.
What the culture does, when it refuses to allow religious teaching in schools, but teaches science as ‘truth’, is that it is imposing a world view. It is indoctrinating the students to ‘believe’ in science. Since we agree, that to at least some extent, science requires a measure of ‘faith’ by it’s adherents, we are teaching a sort of religion. At the expense of alternative views of human existence.
I'd say that we teach facts as we know them. If we teach that 2+2=4, are we teaching a world view or simply math? 2+2=4 is not a worldview so much as something that is always true so far as we know, within our limited experience. In high school science classes, students mix Chemical A with Compound B, and get Result C. And if you take that experiment anywhere in the world, you are going to get the same results if the experiment is repeated and conditions are the same. Is this indoctrination or simply teaching facts as we know them?
In essence, we teach our children that the material, physical world is of greater importance than the more subtle, mystical (for lack of a better word) experience of being a human. Assuming half of the people on earth believe in some sort of ‘afterlife’, reincarnation, heaven, hell, whatever. And the other half believe only what is measurable. One group is being ‘discriminated’ against. Not even a scientist would deny that humans have an awareness of their existence. That humans have a consciousness. These are as important to the human experience as any physical or material thing.
I think you are oversimplifying. Many people have both some sort of religious belief and also value science. They are not mutually exclusive. But science is about answering the HOW questions. Religion is about answering WHY.
A very important aspect of human life, is ignored by schools, as being too controversial. Or not within the purview of formal education. Best left to family. Quantum physics shows us that there is 'something’ that functions as the source of all things material and physical, but they can’t measure it.
But that 'something' need not be any kind of consciousness. Our ability to study these things is still very primitive. I'm sure in a hundred years we will know a lot more than we do today.
By the way, there are many questions concerning gravity now days. The universe is expanding at an ever faster rate of speed. Were we correct about gravity, we would be seeing the universe contracting. Clearly, we understand only how gravity operates within our limited experience.
I concede that science has allowed our day to day experience of life to be more comfortable. My posit is simply that science does not address, can not address, the ultimate question of what is the mysterious source of everything, including our very consciousness. It seems unquestionably reasonable to me, that we urge our children to consider the ultimate question. Perhaps it would be more palatable if the course were called Ultimate or Source rather than religion.
To some extent, I wouldn't have a problem with that....as long as it was not passed off as 'science' or any fakery like intelligent design or that kind of bullshit. But since we ARE talking about religion, and we couldn't get away with trying to pretend we were not, I'd be happier with something that makes clear that we are studying religious traditions and what lies behind them....those 'ultimate questions' you mention.
However, what we do, is require students to be proficient in math, science, English etc and do not require classes or proficiency in asking ultimate questions. This is a 'world view’, a point of view that the ultimate question is not worth asking because it is beyond our current ability to answer. This attitude seems very similar to someone sticking their head in the sand. We all know, if you don’t ask the question, you probably won’t get the answer. Or, to put it another way, if you don’t buy a ticket, you can’t win the lottery.
In light of quantum physics discovery that there is 'something’ out there, this seems to be an extremely appropriate subject to be pursued, embraced even.
The problem as I see it is that if we are talking about public schools, then we have to be fair to all belief systems. When I talk to people who want to see 'Prayer put back in the schools!!!' they seem to think that (naturally), if we teach religion in our public schools, then it is their religion that will be the one being taught.
I try to explain that if religion will be taught in schools, then no particular religion can be favored over the others.....and that they will have to be comfortable with the fact that their children will be taught about your religion, but also a lot of other religions, some of which you may not like or even find very distasteful. For example, if you are going to teach Christian traditions (and what denomination?), then you also have to give Satanists, Scientologists, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, and everybody else a seat at the same school table. I know a devout Buddhist. I know that if I mentioned that religion is going to be taught at her daughter's school, she is going to want Buddhism taught as well. And it goes on and on and on. And as an Agnostic myself, I wouldn't mind children being taught to ask those kinds of 'ultimate' questions about what might be out there, as long as they were exposed to the idea that there might be nothing out there as well.
How would you address the issue? It's all very well to propose teaching children to ask about the source of things, of consciousness, and that sort of thing, but if you try to leave out any particular belief system, you will meet opposition from the Christians (at the very least) who aren't interested in their children asking questions unless the answers fit in with their existing belief systems.
Washington, D.C. Office
702 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: (202) 224-5852
Fax: (202) 228-5036
Pikes Peak Office
409 North Tejon St., Suite 107
Colorado Springs, 80903
Phone: (719) 328-1100
Fax: (719) 328-1129Denver Metro Office
2300 15th St., Suite 450
Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.
Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?
Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?
You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.
You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.
You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.
You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.
You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.
One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.
I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.
I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason.. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.
Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.
What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits.. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.
The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? The leader of the majority party. He/She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.
It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.
If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.
If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red ..
If the Army &Marines are in IRAQ , it's because they want them in IRAQ
If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.
There are no insoluble government problems.
Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.
Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.
They, and they alone, have the power.
They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses.
Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.
We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!
Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.
What you do with this article now that you have read it.......... Is up to you.
This might be funny if it weren't so darned true.
Be sure to read all the way to the end:
Tax his land,
Tax his bed,
Tax the table
At which he's fed.
Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes
Are the rule.
Tax his work,
Tax his pay,
He works for peanuts
Anyway!
Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.
Tax his ties,
Tax his shirt,
Tax his work,
Tax his dirt..
Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he
Tries to think.
Tax his cigars,
Tax his beers,
If he cries
Tax his tears.
Tax his car,
Tax his gas,
Find other ways
To tax his ass.
Tax all he has
Then let him know
That you won't be done
Till he has no dough.
When he screams and hollers;
Then tax him some more,
Tax him till
He's good and sore.
Then tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in
Which he's laid.
Put these words
Upon his tomb,
Taxes drove me
to my doom...'
When he's gone,
Do not relax,
Its time to apply
The inheritance tax.
911 Airport Tax
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Service Charge T ax
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax
Sales Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Ser vice FeeTax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge=2 Tax
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY? Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation was the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids. What in the hell happened? Can you spell 'politicians?' And I still have to 'press 1' for English!? I hope this goes around THE USA at least 100 times!!! YOU can help it get there!!!
GO AHEAD - - - BE AN AMERICAN!!!
The commercials currently running on TV (paid by the tax payer) makes everything sound reasonable, but if you read the bill, and the amendments (if you can find them all), it tells a completely different story. And an added bonus...federal funds will still pay for abortions, although the individual states can opt out of abortion coverage, the taxes paid will still fund abortions. Here are some questions that need answers: Why did Pelosi and company have to bribe their their own Democrat party (with our money) to get 60 votes? My first instinct says that this bill is not what they say it is. What kind of health care "reform" mandates that the tax payers have to purchase a plan, or face fines and/or jail time? Why should we the people fund a health care "reform" bill, when real reform can be achieved without cost to the tax payer? Republicans have put real reform ideas on the table (that does not involve cuts to medi-care, or large tax increases), but the dems just sweep them under the table, and claim that the Trillion dollar price tag is needed accomplish health care reform.
What the culture does, when it refuses to allow religious teaching in schools, but teaches science as ‘truth’, is that it is imposing a world view. It is indoctrinating the students to ‘believe’ in science. Since we agree, that to at least some extent, science requires a measure of ‘faith’ by it’s adherents, we are teaching a sort of religion. At the expense of alternative views of human existence.
In essence, we teach our children that the material, physical world is of greater importance than the more subtle, mystical (for lack of a better word) experience of being a human. Assuming half of the people on earth believe in some sort of ‘afterlife’, reincarnation, heaven, hell, whatever. And the other half believe only what is measurable. One group is being ‘discriminated’ against. Not even a scientist would deny that humans have an awareness of their existence. That humans have a consciousness. These are as important to the human experience as any physical or material thing.
A very important aspect of human life, is ignored by schools, as being too controversial. Or not within the purview of formal education. Best left to family. Quantum physics shows us that there is 'something’ that functions as the source of all things material and physical, but they can’t measure it.
By the way, there are many questions concerning gravity now days. The universe is expanding at an ever faster rate of speed. Were we correct about gravity, we would be seeing the universe contracting. Clearly, we understand only how gravity operates within our limited experience.
I concede that science has allowed our day to day experience of life to be more comfortable. My posit is simply that science does not address, can not address, the ultimate question of what is the mysterious source of everything, including our very consciousness. It seems unquestionably reasonable to me, that we urge our children to consider the ultimate question. Perhaps it would be more palatable if the course were called Ultimate or Source rather than religion.
However, what we do, is require students to be proficient in math, science, English etc and do not require classes or proficiency in asking ultimate questions. This is a 'world view’, a point of view that the ultimate question is not worth asking because it is beyond our current ability to answer. This attitude seems very similar to someone sticking their head in the sand. We all know, if you don’t ask the question, you probably won’t get the answer. Or, to put it another way, if you don’t buy a ticket, you can’t win the lottery.
America needs Obamacare like Nancy Pelosi needs a Halloween mask.
Have you heard about McDonalds new Obama Value Meal?....Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.
What does Barack Obama call lunch with a convicted felon?....A fund raiser.
What's the difference between Obama's cabinet and a penitentiary?....One is filled with tax evaders, blackmailers and threats to society.
The other is for housing prisoners.
If Pelosi, Reid, Kerry and Obama were on a boat in the middle of the ocean and it sank, who would be saved? .... America!
If Nancy Pelosi has her face lifted one more time she'll have a beard!
What's the difference between Obama and his dog, Bo?....Bo has papers.
The liberals are asking us to give Obama time....We agree and think 25 to life would be appropriate.
Can someone, without calling me names and being rude, explain the difference between the faith placed in the moving target of scientific 'fact' (which is constantly changing) and faith in some sort of creator?
To a large extent, you are right. I had a religion professor explain to the class at the beginning of the term that we all had faith, whether we had a religious belief or not. When you drive over a hill, you don't actually know that there will be anything on the other side....but you hit the gas and drive anyway, because you have faith that the earth probably doesn't terminate in a vacuum over the next hill. When you take a step, you have faith that the ground will hold you, even though the atoms that make up the ground are comprised of mostly empty space. So we all have faith, at least in that way.
Science represents the best provable, repeatable theories we have about the world around us up till now, and hypotheses about what we don't know. You seem to dwell on things that science has been wrong about....and I'm not saying science is perfect...it is an attempt to discover the truths and rules, and will make mistakes, but I was taught about gravity in school, and so were you. Do you think that science was wrong, and we are about to go floating off into space? We can only teach what we know at the time. There will be mistakes, but we can only do our best.
I also had a geography teacher....when HE was in school back in the forties, plate tectonics was a radical new idea in the geography world, and HIS professors didn't think much of it, but it was very popular among the young geographers just entering the field. I don't know what to tell you, man....people are human, and we do the best with the science and tools that we have. I guess you have to accept that it will always be an imperfect sort of thing, but we are as accurate as we can be, and always improving.
Religion is something that is believed without ANY facts. There are no ways to test it, no experiments that can be repeated elsewhere using the scientific method, and is simply believed on faith alone.
Since all human beings are in this together, why not teach all the viewpoints? Why not tell kids in science class that; 'at this time, we believe thus and so to be true, but, be aware that we may be wrong'. I'm aware of the glaring difference, someone that believes in a Creator cannot provide any empirical evidence of it's existence. Am I alone in noticing that empirical evidence is not always conclusive and accurate either?
Now, some folks consider such an occurrence to be the natural scientific learning curve. As we know more, we make new, better decisions. So, in essence, what the children are taught in school is what is "presumed" to be factual at the time, along with the scientific method. Often enough, what was considered to be factual, is proven to be wrong. So, the kids were taught something that wasn't true. It wasn't an intentional lie, but it was not factual.
In case you are reactionary, the point here is, the kids are taught to accept the best information available as fact, on faith that it is indeed fact. They are taught that this approach is superior to having faith in some grey beard that lives in the sky. Though, let it be clear, the fact's they learn are often proven to be nonfactual. This is indoctrination.
Can someone, without calling me names and being rude, explain the difference between the faith placed in the moving target of scientific 'fact' (which is constantly changing) and faith in some sort of creator?
Years ago, I was a church goer. No longer. I'm still a believer, but not in the church. I also, as a believer, experienced a 'learning curve'. As I learned more about what I believe in, I changed my mind about some things, came to different conclusions. Just like a scientist does. Now, Quantum Physics and String Theory have grabbed my attention as pointing to some sort of 'Source' or primary force of life. In a Christian Church that source is called God. In Quantum Physics, it doesn't yet have a moniker. It is a mystery.
Since all human beings are in this together, why not teach all the viewpoints? Why not tell kids in science class that; 'at this time, we believe thus and so to be true, but, be aware that we may be wrong'. I'm aware of the glaring difference, someone that believes in a Creator cannot provide any empirical evidence of it's existence. Am I alone in noticing that empirical evidence is not always conclusive and accurate either?
Albert Einstein didn't like the concept of Quantum Physics, he called it 'spooky'. He didn't want it to disrupt his theories of relativity. It leaves the basic Theory of Relativity alone, but knocks the socks off of the Theory of Special Relativity. Thermo Dynamics doesn't hold in Quantum Theory either. It is quite possible, that much of what we believe about science is wrong when humans behave differently in the world. Sure, most of the physical laws still hold, but there are new laws being 'discovered' in Quantum that actually seem to be quite similar to 'faith' based concepts. Quantum Physics illustrates that humans can supersede what we perceive as 'natural, physical laws', simply by engaging their existence in a different manner. Quantum Physics is science, the experiments have been done thousands of times and the same result is always obtained, with out fail. That it disrupts traditional science is as amazing as discovering that the world isn't flat, but round.
Did you know, you never actually sit upon a chair? The atoms, with all the electrons and protons whirling about in the chair have an electromagnetic force that pushes the atoms in your body away. You 'float' above the chair, not enough for a human to perceive, but you are floating none the less. A human never actually touches anything, they only perceive they touch. Perception is NOT reality, unless you are in politics or Hollywood. Any human that insists on living by their perception of their existence, is going to be 'left behind'.
Remember when that old fart, Stevens, a Republican from Alaska, got funding for the bridge to no where? He was raked over the coals by the media for 'pork'.
Why is it tolerated by the citizens of this country that there are two sets of rules in the media, one for Democrats and one for Republicans?
That bridge went to a small community, the people living there would have benefited from that bridge. The people in New Orleans are going to benefit from the money their Senator got them. The folks in Nebraska are going to benefit from the pork Nelson sliced off. What's the difference?
Let me say that at times, I agree with you, in principle, but I find that I dispute your “facts” on this post.
Please indulge my response to you.
JOE LEGAL vs. JOSE ILLEGAL
”You have two families: ‘Joe Legal’ and ‘Jose Illegal’.
Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California.”
”Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".
I will concede your point that this situation routinely occurs in California, Colorado and throughout the United States.
What you failed to mention that it is explicitly illegal for employers to hire labor without a valid Social Security Number (SSN), either as an employee or as a sub-contractor.
Nevertheless, the practice is widespread, and is therefore the blame of the employer, who has a fiduciary and legal obligation to hire only individuals with a valid SSN.
”Ready? Now pay attention...”.
”Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.
Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00…”
Joe Legal, if he were properly informed, will have completed his W-4 as married, with four exemptions, (himself, his spouse and two dependents,) making his effectual, after-tax income $43, 802.00, (assuming his spouse is not employed.)
His 2008 tax would be as follows:
.0765% X $52,000 for FICA Tax ($3,978.00). This is a non-deductible tax imposed on all American employees imposed by Congress.
Joe Legal’s 2008 Federal Taxable Income would be $27,100.00.
This is calculated as $52,000 Adjustable Gross Income (AGI) minus [–] The Standard Deduction of $10,900 for Married Filing Jointly, minus [-] his four Personal Exemptions, (which equal an additional $14,000 subtracted from his AGI at $3,500 per exemption x four exemptions.)
Joe would also be entitled to a non-refundable Child Tax Credit, equaling $2000.00, ($1,000.00 per child.)
Joe’s non-refundable Child Tax Credit (line 52 on his 1040) of $2,000.00, makes his net Federal Income Tax $1,259.00 (2008 IRS Tax Table)
Joe’s California Income Tax would be $961.00, (per the 2008 California Tax Franchise Board Tax Tables), after his California Standard Deduction Exemptions and credits (CA Form 540).
Joe’s “total tax” would be $6,198, or 12% of his income, not the 30% you post.
By the way, the majority of Joe’s tax is FICA.
If Joe did in fact have 30% withholding, as you assumed in your post, then he would be entitled to a Federal and State refund, thereby increasing his effectual net income.
As we can now see, Joe’s net income is $45,802.00
Jose, on the other hand will still have $31,200, as you correctly posted in your hypothetical scenario.
”Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.
Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.”
Here, we see that Joe is doing the right thing, and is taking care of his family. He now has $38,602.00 after paying for his insurance.
Jose, on the other hand, is Federally prohibited from receiving state and local medical assistance.
“Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.
Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00. “
We now see that, in fact, Joe now has $32,602.00 after his food costs. Assuming equal food costs for Jose, Jose has $25,200.00, who is NOT in fact eligible for food stamps.
“In the early 1970's, Congress was concerned about welfare fraud and illegal work by those not authorized to work. To deal with these concerns, they amended the Social Security Act to authorize SSA to assign SSNs to all legally admitted noncitizens at entry and to anyone receiving or applying for a Federal benefit. Subsequent legislation, enacted in the mid-1970's, required an SSN as a condition of eligibility for Federal programs, such as Aid to Families With Dependent Children (now Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) benefits, Medicaid, food stamps, school lunch programs, and any Federal loan program. Additional legislation authorized States to use the SSN in the administration of "any tax, general public assistance, drivers license, or motor vehicle registration law within its jurisdiction." The legislation allowed the States to require people affected by such laws to furnish their SSNs to the States.”
“Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.
Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.”
Joe, as a resident of California, is entitled to a non-refundable Renter’s Credit on his CA Form 540, which lowers his overall taxable liability. His net income after his rent is $18,202.00.
Jose, who does not have an SSN, and by your scenario does not pay taxes, is not entitled to such a credit NOR is he entitled to Federal or state subsidies. (Again, see above link.) Assuming equal housing costs for Jose, his net income is now $10,800.00.
”Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal now has $7,231.00.
Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.”
Joe does the right thing again, and pays his STATE MANDATED auto insurance of $2,400 per year, making his net income $15,802.00
Let us assume that Jose snubs the STATE MANDATED insurance Laws that require auto insurance for all drivers in California. Jose still only has a net income of $10,800.00
”Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.
Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.”
And here, my dear Shadow is where you err. Joe still is an “upstanding American”. He does the right thing and pays his dues. Nevertheless he has $15,802.00 disposable income.
If Jose, as you assume, sends money “out of the country every month”, then he makes less than $10,800.00 per year to pay his utilities and gasoline.
Let’s be clear on this point—how Joe or Jose spends their disposable income is a mute point—whether they spend it at Walmart or sending money out of county. Joe clearly has more disposable income, whether he “struggles” to make ends meet or not.
(Hell, we are all struggling in this present economy—elitist, blue-collar or self-employed.)
”Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.
Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.”
Let me respectfully say, if Joe cannot make it on $15,802.00 per year disposable income: or One Thousand, One Hundred and Seventeen dollars per month—AFTER taxes, insurance, rent, and groceries—then what is he spending it on?
If Joe needs more income to make ends meet, then he SHOULD take a second job.
Shadow, before I received my degree, I worked two jobs to support my family in the early 1990’s so that my wife could stay home and take care of our kids. She could have easily taken a part-time job, but her income would only have been used to pay for the daycare.
Since we valued family care over daycare, we chose that she stay at home. As a result, we ate Tuna Helper and macaroni and cheese and did without cable T.V. We had two used cars, both bought and paid for, although at times they would not start and had re-tread tires on both of them.
After my formal education, I was able to find a better paying job. Many years later, I opened my own business. It took years of deferred gratification, but I have realized the American Dream. (I buy only new tires now, and if I ever eat tuna, it’s because I want to, not because I have to.)
”Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.”
All I can say is, see above citations. Jose cannot have government-sponsored lunches without a valid SSN. Jose’s kids can however, attend an ESL program, but only because it was legislated by politicians.
”Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay…”
On this point we agree. But, on the other hand, the innumerable, American-born homeless and non-tax paying (welfare) citizens also enjoy the same services
”Do you get it, now?
If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens...
You are part of the problem!
It's way PAST time to take a stand for America and Americans!
What are you waiting for? Pass it on.”
On this point we disagree.
How about we make our politicians enforce the Law that all workers, whether they are employees or sub-contractors, have a valid SSN?
Both Republicans and Democrats have had egg on their faces for hiring undocumented, non-SSN employees.
These unscrupulous employers, willing to cheat the Government (read, cheat YOU and ME, the real tax-paying Americans,) are the real problem.
These shady employers, in their greed for profit—and just so you know, I am a Capitalist—I believe in profit and the entrepreneurial spirit that made America what She is—are the real problem.
I offer that there would be no illegal, non-documented worker problems in this great country of ours if there were not law-breaking employers looking to cut costs by paying an illegal “under the table”.
And for the unbelievers, there is a Federal website that all employers can access to determine if an SSN is legitimate. Below is a link to the website and a direct paste of the site.
"There are two Internet verification options you can use to verify that your employee names and Social Security numbers match Social Security's records. You can:
Verify up to 10 names and SSNs (per screen) online and receive immediate results. This option is ideal to verify new hires.
Upload overnight files of up to 250,000 names and SSNs and usually receive results the next government business day. This option is ideal if you want to verify an entire payroll database or if you hire a large number of workers at a time.
While the service is available to all employers and third-party submitters, it can only be used to verify current or former employees and only for wage reporting (Form W-2) purposes.
In closing, Shadow, I hope that you take these comments in the spirit in which they were intended. This was in way meant to attack you personally; I suspect that you are a true American. Let’s just call it like it is….
I am merely refuting your “facts” of this oft-posted thread. This isn’t about Joe vs. Jose, as I am not justifying “Jose.” This is about law-breaking “American Employers”, which put the tax burden on you and I.
Joe is in my mind the better player, not because he makes more money, but because he plays by the “rules”, as do I and as do you, I presume.
Please feel free to respond, either at my e-mail or on this thread.
I did not ask about the base. I suggested that not all bases are necessary. It figures that you conservative morons don't know how to read. But, it's a simple fact that with technology we can do more with less, and don't necessarily need the expense of a lot of large bases.
Of course most liberals actually believe that we can reason with terrorists, and can depend on Obama as commander in chief. Both very laughable, just keep on drinking that kool-aid, and in 2010 the liberal control will be gone!
Yeah, cause Bush did such a bang-up job as commander-in-chief.
9/11 happened on his watch while he ignored warnings.
Let Bin Laden escape in Afghanistan.
Neglected war in Afghanistan, so it's a mess.
Invaded Iraq based on lies, when it had nothing to do with 9/11.
Fucked that up too, so we've been there for years.
I'd hardly call the president telling kids to work hard in school "indoctrination"
What the religious right wants is similar to what the Taliban want....their religion, taught as fact in school....a very different thing.
Besides, was it okay when Ronald Reagan spoke to kids in school? He didn't tell them to study hard...he talked about his economic policies and tax policy. Was that 'indoctrination' too? Or was that okay?